Not To Bring Up GM-lopnik, but...

"JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7" (jayzayeighty) 03/30/2020 at 20:30 • Filed to: None

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Cadillac is somehow the most intriguing brand to me in terms of its direction and lineup. And I cannot help but sense that, despite Cadillac’s deep imperfections, every other brand seems to get a pass on elements Cadillac gets substantively panned for. Were the S4 in the FP review a CT4/5/Catera-Vsport-Redwing-TouringSedanCoupe, any sort of nuance would melt away in both the editorial aspects and the audience reception. Slushbox exclusivity, derivative styling, undifferentiated motivation, and the like being the coverage in question. Motor Trend—among peer outlets—praised the soft CT5-V in terms of driving experience to no end, yet the coverage here revolved around branding and styling as though from a marketing publication.

I understand that the V-line and de Nysschen’s dead agenda have set the brand up for high expectations, as have subsequent developments like realization of the Blackwing powerplant. I do not agree that all is lost, however, as I view the CT4-V as one pedal short of de-robing the emperor Jalopnik, and the top dog CT5 an LT5 away from preying upon the Hellcat’s aging viability. And those hypotheticals say nothing of the unsexy yet glaringly overlooked value propositions present. Investments in niche models are foolish bets to place when the laudatory headline and buzz may just as well go to Genesis for price-gouging manual transmission buyers, and I do not doubt that GM is capable of the complacent capitulation to leave the last word at “cheaper.” Do any of us (well, outside Germany) benefit from that status quo?

Edit: I really had not idea where to go with this, so apologies for the ramble if you made it down here!

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/30/2020 at 20:33

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I’m expecting a CT5 “ Vmax”  with a blackwing.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 03/30/2020 at 20:41

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It would really complement the C8 properly by offering the full package of attributes the buying market supposedly demands. Granted the audience’s “full package” it isn’t really an image of a lifestyle that forever renders the bar too high!

It’s a shame to abandon truly   impressive efforts that can serve as the basis for a vital reinvention of the brand. Barra has compounded this tendency so far as I’ve seen.

Grindintosecond > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/30/2020 at 20:43

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No worries! You used big words so I had no idea you were rambling!

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Grindintosecond 03/30/2020 at 20:51

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I had no idea this topic was on my mind to be fair. I was probably trying to mask the rambling, glad it worked! And my sister just sent me a text comprised of only the words “ramble ramble ramble.” Not sure if she’s found out my ancient online alter-ego or if she’s having a coincidental stroke.

jimz > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/30/2020 at 20:52

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yeah, I agree with you. They’re trying to come from behind, so unfortunately they have to work twice as hard for twice as long to be twice as good. Audi and BMW can phone it in, but because of the badges they get a pass. An Audi or BMW can have consistent $3,000 out-of-warranty failures and that’s just part of the “ownership experience ,” but if a Cadillac needs anything more than oil changes in 175,000 miles it’s a piece of junk.

and the worst part is those opinions are from Internet People who haven’t owned any of the cars in question. 

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/30/2020 at 21:04

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I  think the ct4 v with a 3rd pedal would be a neat proposition on paper.

Discerning > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/30/2020 at 21:04

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I like everything about the CT5-V except for two things:

1) Th e c-pillar looks dumb. Really really dumb

2) lack of dual independent blower motors in the front is disappointing. The wife and I rarely agree on how hard the AC should be blowing.

I really like the GM V6 and I think the 3.0t looks really promising.

If anything, I wish the GM diehards would embrace the V6 and mod it. Those engines have a ton of potential but its rarely exploited.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/30/2020 at 21:09

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I agree, GM in general and Cadillac specifically, consistently get the short end of the stick.

That said, Im considering leaving the fold with my next *car* purchase because they have nothing interesting in my price range. If I do get a GM it will be used. 

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > jimz 03/30/2020 at 21:09

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Oh yeah; I’m nowhere near the target market for any cars in this class (i.e. new)   by any metric, but I’ll try to approach them without pretension. There needs to be stronger corporate backing behind worthy efforts to establish the brand, and it does not exist in terms of marketing or bean-counting. But I fail to see how so many outlets and posters find validity in critiquing the GM politics , then doing their best to perpetuate it by operating in what could almost be called bad faith. I just don’t see it to the same extent elsewhere, and the vehicle offerings wither from both ends of the vine, suffering from corporate and public scrutiny.

Bandit > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/30/2020 at 21:14

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As someone who has worked on them extensively, thank you for actual positive comments about the cars

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Bandit 03/30/2020 at 21:39

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Shoot that’s really cool, t hank you for helping make them happen. I didn’t realize you’re in the auto industry, are you (IIRC) working as an engineer?

not for canada - australian in disguise > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/30/2020 at 21:40

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I’m not a big Cadillac fan, but I’m glad that they’re still trying with sedans unlike certain other GM brands. To me, Cadillac are one of those weird off-the-wall luxury brands these days that people buy if they don’t want a German or one of the Japanese brand. Same realm as Volvo, or Alfa, Lincoln, or Genesis. They just need to carve out their niche if they want to stand out, like all the aforementioned brands have. Volvos are safe and sensible. Alfas are fiery and unpredictable, but beautiful. Lincolns are comfortable and old-fashioned, but not in a bad way. Genesises are incredible value for money, and still have a sporty edge.

I think Cadillac’s best course of action is to basically just copy Lincoln. Out with trying to be sporty, in with barges. Lincoln kinda proved that sort of luxury car still has a market, considering how much they’ve been able to turn themselves around using that strategy. Hopefully the new Celerystick or whatever they’re calling their electric flagship will be more Lincoln, less dime store BMW.

Chariotoflove > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/30/2020 at 21:57

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I love where Cadillac has been going with design, quality, and value. It’s just so much easier to to pen article after click bait article harping about GM’s also-ran, never-quite-good-enough luxury marque and how it falls short in this or that way . But then someone like Kristen Lee actually uses a car like the CT-6 and waxes on about what a great car it is to road trip in. I think too many times they write the easy article rather than a good article.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Snuze: Needs another Swede 03/30/2020 at 22:13

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There was a very short window when the ‘19 Sonic RS was discounted like crazy and there were some manuals on lots. Unfortunately GM (or any of the big 3) aren’t stacked with hot hatches and the like. A base Camaro seems like  a compelling value, but sedans and compacts are few and far between.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > not for canada - australian in disguise 03/30/2020 at 22:15

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That illustrates the lost value of Pontiac to a degree.  I think electric cars will make the old philosophy of the American luxo-barge more viable in this regulatory environment and more palatable to younger buyers.

Bandit > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/30/2020 at 23:19

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Yep! 

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Bandit 03/31/2020 at 00:07

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At the risk of asking a simplistic question: how do you like it? I finally got around to going to college for mechanical engineering, with the overly specific goal of honestly working on cars like this in mind (but also to find real usefulness) and I’m really torn about whether to continue. It’s not a school to write home about and doesn’t have so much in terms of automotive specialization, but what I’ve done so far is fairly general/introductory and does not speak to me at all. Granted, I could afford to get more involved with clubs like FSAE in that regard.

If you don’t mind me taking your time, would you say that there is sufficient reason, solely as a gearhead, to enter the field? And is it realistic to expect that I can secure a job that would fit that interest? I just have a hard time picturing myself doing CAD, math, etc intensively without some direct interest in the project and find myself leaning towards getting out with an econ degree. I still enjoy tinkering and making things work, but I’m a little embarrassed to admit that I miss the slight humanities part of school.

Sorry for the wordiness, post would be more appropriate it’s just I don’t think I’ve met an automotive engineer before. If you got this far I really appreciate it, man. Also congrats on the career (I assume) since it’s been a long time since I’ve been around these parts !

Engineer Jaron > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/31/2020 at 04:45

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Not to hijack your thread, but I graduated from Mechanical Engineering three andyears ago and  I couldn’t be a bigger gearhead. Being in the automotive industry would have been awesome, but I also had a passion for buildings and architecture. Currently, I’m a building automation engineer and design HVAC and lighting control systems for commercial applications. While I do think about “what if” scenarios if I pursued the car industry more, I find engineering in general just fascinating and building automation is a good hybrid of mechanical and electrical. I still heavily pursue cars in my spare time, and there are plenty of car guys in my field as well so I always manage to get my car or motorcycle fix somehow .

Snuze: Needs another Swede > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/31/2020 at 07:37

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I liked the little Sonics, and they also had the slightly bigger Cruze hatch. Sadly they never did any performance variants. T he Buick Regal was built on the same platform as the Cruze and could be had with a 2.0T, so why a Cruze SS never happened is beyond me. Similarly the Sonic RS (or an SS variant) should have at least gotten the uprated 1.5L engine that’s good for 170ish HP.

I’ve driven the base Camaro and Mustang and both are nice. The Camaro comes out on top in terms of performance and handling. but it has a tiny trunk and zero visi bility . The Mustang is not as sharp but much more livable as a daily driver.

Regarding Cadillac, I loved the ATS when it came out. I drove a 2.0T version and dynamically it was every bit the BMW killer they said it was. But then I looked and it had the same cheap shift knob as my Cruze. And cheap looking “Piano Black” and hard touch plastics at contact points. That was a huge let down. To be fair, though, it’s still on my list as a used car buy, but only because I’m not that picky and things like that are much more palatable at $20k than at $40k + .

PS9 > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/31/2020 at 09:10

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‘Branding and styling’ aren’t just dismissable fluff. They are at the first level of engagement for a potential consumer. They are the opening salvo of cannonballs fired from the battleship that is your car company, and if they land a weak hit or miss entirely, consumers will rightly think the follow up won’t be so great.

Branding and styling are important for any car company; no one wants to drive a substandard product after all. But even beyond that, they are critical for a luxury brand. ‘Look everyone; I’ve arrived’ is the point of a luxury badge. It’s supposed to be a departure from the car you used to drive. They are symbols of wealth, attainment and success. Good luck projecting those things with a nomenclature that tumbles out of the mouth like crushed lego blocks, and a styling cue on a critical mid-level product that would look right at home on a dodge avenger.  

The kind of missteps Cadillac is still making to this day show they will never get it. Someone who can drop $50k or more on a car is not lacking for good choices . Germany looms large in that market for good reason; the competitors are uncompromising in their execution, which has fostered a decades-long brand loyalty the rest of the industry has yet to fracture. It’s hard to drive away from the lot without excellence when german badges are concerned, so anyone wanting a slice of that market had better be targeting that bar always, for every product in the brand. Cutting this corner here and there, never getting the interior right, that awful CUE entertainment system, and that awful rear quarter panel are a collection of compromises Caddy is always willing to make against a market full of buyers that expect none. When better options exist, driving a compromise will always feel like a missed opportunity.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Snuze: Needs another Swede 03/31/2020 at 10:16

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Cruze =/= Regal, Regal is Ep-II, Cruze is on Delta . But that being said, the Cruze’s Buick equivalent was the Verano which DID get the 2.0T and a manual. But it was never branded as a performance car and so that combination never left the verano . The cobalt SS of years past was really good for a small car and why they didn’t think they could go toe to toe against the STs is indicative of where GM’s priorities were, I think.

Bandit > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 03/31/2020 at 10:26

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I think it is worth it if you’re a gear head to get into the industry, but based on my own experiences at several companies I highly   recommend working for an OEM rather than a supplier. School choice is mattering less and less these days it seems, at GM hiring use to be restricted to a handful of major engineering colleges but it’s opened up to any grads now. Experience is certainly more important than the name of the school, FSAE, Baja, Ecocar, and clubs like that are basically a fast pass into a job.

My degree says I’m a materials engineer and I’ve never had a CAD or simulation class in my life, but if you want to go into the design/development realm that’s not really a huge issue either since all companies have dedicated CAD/sim teams to do all that work. Back w hen I was designing various parts for performance cars I found it’s more important to be good at effective communication, brain storming, critical thinking, and problem solving than having the hard skills like math or CAD or whatever.

After I designed parts for a while I pivoted to the management and business side of the industry and had a fantastic time assisting the leadership team manage the engineering side of a high volume program . Those skills I listed previously were invaluable and transferred directly. There are so many jobs out there doing so many things you totally wont have an issue finding something you like, you sound like you’re in college still which means you would qualify for many companies rotational programs where they let you jump around jobs for a period of time to find your best fit - I know many industries are doing that these days .

Unfortunately you are at the wrong time to be in t he job market. With the downturn in the economy due to the virus (and other factors) all hiring has effectively been frozen and the big three have all announced salary deferments for white collar workers. And as the big three do, so does the industry. Downsides? I t’s a roller coaster  of an industry and job security is never a guarantee, just read the headlines...   Wow that was a lot of words.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/31/2020 at 10:30

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Ahh, sorry, you are correct, it’s the Verano and not the Regal. I knew there was a Buick sibbling to the Cruze that had the 2.0T but I should have looked it up.

I owned a Cobalt LS (base model) and it was a competent small car but really lacked in the fit and finish department. I don’t have much experience with Ford’s STs, so I can’t make a comparison. But I do know that while the Cobalt was light years ahead of the Cavalier it replaced, it still lagged the pack. The Cruze was the first compact car (and I guess now only?) where I feel like GM got it “right”. And of course there’s no performance variant. As you say, it’s probably indicative of their priorities.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Bandit 03/31/2020 at 16:11

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This is invaluable information to me, thank you a ton ! It occurs to me I’ve read quite a few   comments and forum posts over the years bemoaning working for suppliers. It’s really the computer stuff (CAD, Matlab, etc) that, while not quite kicking my ass, proves draining for me so it’s interesting that isn’t the crux of the job. It would be a while until working in the field, but I can only imagine how turbulent things are in the industry right now. I am really glad to have gotten in touch and can’t thank you enough as substantial accounting of the work from a person with like-interests has eluded me and is invaluable at a point like this. It’s a relief that school selectivity is not so strict and I will keep an eye out for opportunities like rotational programs. Best of luck with everything going on, hopefully the T/A is operational because I am getting major cabin fever without anything working to row the gears in !

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > jimz 03/31/2020 at 18:14

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I have a senior coworker who had one Audi need an engine rebuild and another the engine replaced before 70k miles, “well they covered half” and will still only drive them.